tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post5432519668475629946..comments2023-03-31T22:34:28.790+09:30Comments on Greenstump: SORRY SORRY SORRYoigalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17158225677233340849noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-10263898493203291232008-02-16T11:23:00.000+09:302008-02-16T11:23:00.000+09:30Fixing a broken community - no. A long process of ...Fixing a broken community - no. A long process of national healing. I think building a national culture where aboriginals don't feel like pariahs is key. Symbolic steps are a part of that. <BR/>In terms of improving circumstances, I'm a big fan of education and jobs. Worked for the Irish.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-27087450582957638232008-02-15T18:20:00.000+09:302008-02-15T18:20:00.000+09:30Point is he was not wrong but nor is the more cons...Point is he was not wrong but nor is the more conserative side.. On the whole and comapred to most countries I believe Australia can be very proud of history. Yep sure cocked a lot of things up in particular with the Aboriginal but all this constant push of middle class guilt and hyperbole forces people on the defensive and prevents any real progress forward. I ask you have seen or read of any real solutions other than the symbolism that we love so much and achieves so littleoigalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17158225677233340849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-52865835035047804862008-02-15T16:52:00.000+09:302008-02-15T16:52:00.000+09:30Hmm. Thanks. Ok. I wonder why Read did that. Al...Hmm. Thanks. Ok. I wonder why Read did that. All food for thought over the weekend.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-11385834574264308032008-02-15T11:05:00.000+09:302008-02-15T11:05:00.000+09:30"quote incorrect figures" distorts or incorrect s..."quote incorrect figures" distorts or incorrect subtle but important change..Covered most of it in the post, <BR/><BR/>After a review of 800 NSW cases files<BR/><BR/>For instance Read claims "Some managers cut a long story short when they came to that part of the committal notice 'Reason for board taking control of the child'. They simply wrote 'for being Aboriginal'." <BR/><BR/>As already stated in fact out of 800 files only one mentioned that..<BR/><BR/>However, I am not going to try and justify that bad things did not happen, point is the debate is overly tilted that any sembalance of the truth is long gone..but I for one do not accept this black arm band view of history..in any shape or formoigalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17158225677233340849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-32780942853236822492008-02-14T19:19:00.000+09:302008-02-14T19:19:00.000+09:30Where did Peter Read quote incorrect figures ?Where did Peter Read quote incorrect figures ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-55726896547248266072008-02-14T17:10:00.000+09:302008-02-14T17:10:00.000+09:30oops does not need to gild the lilyoops does not need to gild the lilyoigalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17158225677233340849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-74181710175166908692008-02-14T17:09:00.000+09:302008-02-14T17:09:00.000+09:30"Peter Read, for example, (whom I've met), is a re..."Peter Read, for example, (whom I've met), is a reasonable and fair-minded person."<BR/><BR/>He may well be but he does his side of the discussion enormous harm when he quotes documents or figures that are proven incorrect or distorted on the first pass of review. Its sloppy and worse it renders the rest of his work suspect. Worse it provides us rednecks with a free pass. Funnily enough there is enough information out there he does need to gild the lily.<BR/><BR/>I am still awaiting anyone to direct me to anything, anywhere that sounds like a workable solution..(I know thats a cop out but in this case, it really is well beyond anything I can think of that would work)oigalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17158225677233340849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-2884713953352263962008-02-14T16:03:00.000+09:302008-02-14T16:03:00.000+09:30Oigal. Hardly. :-) Well, it's a serious business t...Oigal. <BR/><BR/>Hardly. :-) <BR/><BR/>Well, it's a serious business this. One sided-discussions, from left or right, can be dangerous. Peter Read, for example, (whom I've met), is a reasonable and fair-minded person. (He admits he's emotional about the issue). <BR/><BR/>Whilst I'd probably side with his take over yours (as presented), I doubt the reasonable conservative voice has had a proper airing. All this name-calling mightn't be that harmful when you're talking about tax cuts, but it seems to be when talking about state of affairs in the the aboriginal communities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-11260382613630185182008-02-14T13:42:00.000+09:302008-02-14T13:42:00.000+09:30Ouch and this hurts.. Assmad you have stated my ca...Ouch and this hurts.. Assmad you have stated my case better than I could or did..<BR/><BR/>I don't have a problem with Sorry or Sorry days or even Sorry Decades.<BR/><BR/>However, if we cast our minds back to the grand reconcilation walk over the Sydney Habour Bridge, nice, fluffy feel good but in practical terms did it help one little kid trapped in dysfuntional aboriginal communitities? I am no where near smart enough to even to attempt to provide a solution out of this mess but I do know that all the sorrys in the world is not going to stop women and children getting raped and bashed tonight in any number of dysfuntional communtities.<BR/><BR/>Surely amongst our learned countrymen there is someone who can come up with a workable way forward but I cannot see that happening until we dispose of the fluff and hollow gestures and really expose the issues.<BR/><BR/>Howards intervention..ugly but effective in the short term and already being dismantled by various special interest groups..once again when the soldiers and police leave..do those little kids feel so much better that some arse wipe in Sydney has stood up for Aboriginal "Rights' what price does the kid pay?<BR/><BR/>Racism..mmm..yes and no..Hard to put into words, if you are talking racism as in lets "beat the nigger and hang him from a tree". I think its fair to say that mind set never existed in Australia. Racism as in the white culture is superior and the savages culture and way of life is doomed anyway..yes that was the mind set. Against that mind set, the government tried to do what was best (or thought best) "save what we can and assimilate into white culture" <BR/><BR/>"Breed out the savage" was definately part of the plan, perhaps considering the whole host of seemingly unsolvable issues left today..perhaps it was the only workable solution..wouldn't that make highly emotive post.<BR/><BR/>BTW.."Breed out the savage" is known locally as Transmigration<BR/><BR/>lastly you sum everything up with this..needs no more, self contained trueism<BR/><BR/> "the backlash against perceived racism - ie PC chattering classes - is becoming a problem to calling things like they are: violence, alcoholism, child abuse, rape, general social decay in aboriginal communities."oigalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17158225677233340849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-32841016775510926112008-02-14T12:32:00.000+09:302008-02-14T12:32:00.000+09:30P.S. - Here's a thought & correct me if I'm wrong....P.S. - Here's a thought & correct me if I'm wrong. <BR/><BR/>Sounds like you're saying not that racism hasn't existed in Australia (and everywhere else), but in the case of aboriginals, it hasn't been the main cause of their plight.<BR/><BR/>So certain groups have hijacked the racism issue (for all sorts of reasons), capitalizing on middle-class guilt. <BR/><BR/>This has created an unhelpful and mainly ideological war of attrition between conservatives, liberals the right and the left. <BR/><BR/>This war, it would seem, has been harmful because not only has it distracted attention from the problem, but created false solutions (like ATSIC).<BR/><BR/>To throw my own two Rupiah's worth in, seems like you have a preference for the "non-armband" view of history. You also don't seem to object to a sensible discussion with the other side (the armband view) and Peter Reads of this world. <BR/><BR/>What seems to be the problem is the context. The context and war of ideas above makes such an exchange loaded and unproductive. <BR/><BR/>Fair enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-83855910378873226722008-02-14T12:03:00.000+09:302008-02-14T12:03:00.000+09:30Hi Oigal,There's a time and place for trolling.Her...Hi Oigal,<BR/><BR/>There's a time and place for trolling.<BR/><BR/>Here's what I see - you seem to be saying: <BR/><BR/>1) Important question is: what will the apology change ? And has the approach of the "left" really helped the aboriginal community.<BR/><BR/>But just to draw you out, I think you're still a bit agnostic about the paternalism ie John Howard's approach of sending in the soldiers might have been needed. <BR/><BR/>At the same time, that mind-set (not trying to be loaded), perhaps was what motivated the removals policy ? <BR/><BR/>What's the lesser of two evils. <BR/><BR/>Finally, the backlash against perceived racism - ie PC chattering classes - is becoming a problem to calling things like they are: violence, alcoholism, child abuse, rape, general social decay in aboriginal communities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-75651598953657314012008-02-14T10:57:00.000+09:302008-02-14T10:57:00.000+09:30Hey All (Even you Assmad as you do raise some good...Hey All (Even you Assmad as you do raise some good points)<BR/><BR/>"Was the forced removals policy the right or the wrong thing to do ? Not sure from your post" nor should you be, thats the point to describe the policy as inherently evil and directed only at Aboriginals is simply ignoring the facts. Wrong Headed, perhaps tainted moral mores of that time, certainly..Were a significant portion of these children at risk from a health, education, abuse point of view certainly.<BR/><BR/>I think most fair minded people would agree the government at the time thought they were doing the right thing, in hindsight from todays perspective most would say it was the wrong thing but that does not make the motives at the time evil.<BR/><BR/>Personally, if the apology makes some feel better, go for it. I ask again what is really changed from the last 30 years where the wooly headed romantic notions of the Aboriginal Culture has created such begin neglect that it would be fair to say that more damage has been inflicted on the Aboriginal culture that the first 100 years of british settlements.<BR/><BR/>A point to ponder, should all children be removed from the community where nine men thought is was ok to rape a little girl? No only are those guys still in the community, surely any insular community that creates an environment where 9 men can all think its ok to rape a child is so unfit and dysfuntional that all children should be removed..forcibly if necessary (it won't happen in this day and age by the way, its better to let kids fall thru the cracks than make a stand against the chattering PC brigade)oigalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17158225677233340849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-34210380076221709382008-02-14T10:10:00.000+09:302008-02-14T10:10:00.000+09:30Wow that's pretty harsh. I know that we can't put ...Wow that's pretty harsh. I know that we can't put this issue in black and white pespective. I do still believe that some might have been having benign intention when they took care of aboriginal children. <BR/><BR/>However, i don't like seeing this apology business as leftist who try to portray its opponent bad and evil. In fact, he didn't seem to politicise it as Nelson did. For me, it is really important to acknowledge what happened in the past and realised that current government and society once was laid on a flawed moral faculty.spew-it-allhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12110154444737921136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-24419759100096014062008-02-14T04:31:00.000+09:302008-02-14T04:31:00.000+09:30context is important, but not a magic veto.having ...context is important, but not a magic veto.<BR/><BR/>having said that, words are cheap...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03523641844919145486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14794019.post-72235616140705217772008-02-13T22:27:00.000+09:302008-02-13T22:27:00.000+09:30Easy does it, Big Fella. Just to get things clear,...Easy does it, Big Fella. Just to get things clear, this is the case you're making, right ? <BR/><BR/>1. Australia's getting a bad wrap because: <BR/><BR/>- the government thought it was doing the right thing<BR/><BR/>- Non aboriginals got taken away as well. <BR/><BR/>So, Oigal, just to clarify: <BR/><BR/>1) Was the forced removals policy the right or the wrong thing to do ? Not sure from your post -- (maybe as a troll I just have a short attention span). <BR/><BR/>As always, go, you good thing, go for gold, and, as always, easy does it, Big Fella, easy ! Easy !Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com