Sunday, November 25, 2007

ALP WINS, INDONESIA LOSES


AAAGH I was wrong!! The Australian People have elected the Left Wing, Union Dominated Australian Labour Party and as the the Pope said to the Nun when the condom broke.."This can't be good"

Oh well there goes the budget surplus.

The average Indonesian will say that's good thing because that (Ex)Prime Minister Howard was a racist or arrogant along with the other tripe fed to them by morons. The reality is that Indonesia just fell off the Australian radar, ear wax chewing Rudd (The new PM)is a unmitigated Chinaphode and you can bet that China will be the new focus for Australia (Indonesia loses out yet again to China). Worse is yet to come for Indonesia, once the Democrats turf Bush (who every Indonesian loves to hate) all those pesky human rights and trade protection issues are going to come home to roost in a big way.

In the meantime, I am off to check how far the Aud $ has fallen against the USD..there must be some good news this weekend.

14 comments:

johnorford said...

usdaud fx rate -- not a bad silver lining!! ;)

Achmad Sudarsono said...

Dear Friend,

John Howard threw a few dirty political tricks that dragged Australian politics down to its lowest level in a long time, namely subtle race-baiting. 1996:"the idea we have a racist history is something Australians reject." (White Australia policy etc.) Refusing to say sorry for the fate of indigenous Australians. (Um, hello, Stolen Generation), spreading the idea of a "black armband" view of history.

Let's make no mistake, Howard's probably no racist and knew what he was doing. He was prodding at the latent, tumescent vein of racism in the Australian psyche. It's definitely there, as the Cronulla riots showed, in much the same way a vein of quartz or a honeycomb of oil pockets might be spread through a rock. Howard was making a pitch to the nervous battlers who gravitated towards Pauline Hanson. People forget she wasn't just talking about ATSIC (the aid agency for aboriginals), but also railing against privatizing the likes of Telcom.

Howard sensed the fortress Australia mentality and cashed in, setting up concentration camps for those damn queue jumpers, and hell, deploy the SAS to stop those damn reffos.

11 years of economic prosperity's nothing to be sneezed at. Neither's 30 years of public service. But sinking to the level of race-baiting, fear-mongering, and bullying aborigines, takes Australia back 40 years. Of course, polite, white-bread middle-class Australians could just deny. A country that grew up with "the stain's" pretty good at that. Sounds like a cue for one of Flo Bjelke Petersen's lamingtons.

oigal said...

Hey Assmad,

Typical Left Wing rant, low of facts and high on emotion.

White Australia Policy was a sign of the times and even now a lot less restrictive than any of our Asian Neighbours current immigration policies (Challenge..name one country in SE Asia that has a less restrictive immigration, citizenship or refugee policy than Australia..)

Stolen Generation..What a croc!! The big test legal case in Darwin turned out to be an utter embarrassment for the myth of Stolen Generations. Both cases turned out to be the children were abandoned as half castes by their natural parents (and this was their legal test case and none since). Perhaps you might want to mention the scam of the secret womens business in South Australia a couple of years back as well.

Sorry?? For what, Why would you say sorry for something that no Australian alive today had a hand in. He did express regret but he was very aware that "sorry" would infer responsibility and therefore far reaching legal ramifications and costs for every two bit activist in the country.

Ah the Cronulla Riots? I notice you didn't mention the cause of the riots (what riot anyway.. a blue perhaps). The fact that a group of thugs beat up a surf life saver the week before after he told them to take their old country cultural baggage home and stop assuming that because a girl wears a bikini means she can be harrassed. I further note you failed to mention that whilst there was a few punch-ups on the day, it wasn't the aussies who then went on rampage burning cars and assaulting random people in the street just because they happened look like a white Australian. Cronulla if anything proved that the multi-cultural approach to immigration is a failure along with absurb notion that all cultures are equal. Lot to be said for Howard's push for Australian Values of a fair go and respect for all. That includes women who want to wear a bikini, an understanding of democracy etc.

ASTIC..Is not an aid agency, it has been a tax payer funded disaster,that has absolutely failed the aborginal people due to corruption and its continual use by leftist dreamers still coming to grips that the noble savage myth is just that. Again you fail to note the systematic child abuse and alcohol abuse that occurred under ASTIC watch.

"but also railing against privatizing the likes of Telcom." huh Wrong Party Sport..

"concentration camps for those damn queue jumpers," What garbarge and an insult to anyone who has someone or experienced a real concentration camp.

SAS deployed... CRAP..Utter falsehood..

oigal said...

Assmad,

If you want to talk low level politics, you might want to consider Whitlam and Keating forming that conga line of suckholes to the Indonesian New Order that cost thousands of lives..Now thats low and a betrayal of Australian Values

Achmad Sudarsono said...

Oigal,

Well. Um, let's think about this.

You don't think Australia has a racist history. Let's just say that again.

You don't think Australia has a racist history.

We're not talking about South East Asia (which, yes, is probably worse, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia under the New Order). We're talking about Australia.

If you're going to use 2+2=5 arguments like, "Stolen Generation, what a croc!" It's hard to have a serious conversation. Point is, Oigal, the government did sanction taking kids away from their parents. As you well know, one case (the Darwin case), does not an argument make.

Um, Oigal, I'm sorry. Alot of Australians alive today had a hand in what happened to the aboriginals. And still does. Perhaps, just maybe, the police responsible for the deaths in custody.

On Aid Agency. Depends what you mean. Some might say your criticism applies to all aid agencies. ATSIC a failure, fair enough. But Pauline wasn't just talking about abbos, she was talking about not privatizing state-owned companies as well. Pauline, a battler herself, was trying to give voice to like minded people. It wasn't just about Bungs and Abbos. It was pure economic nationalism.

Finally, how on earth can you say Howard didn't pitch the race card ? Sending in the military to aboriginal settlements ? (Soldiers are well known for their training in social work). The Tampa Affair ?

It's one thing to vote for the Liberal party and sit on the centre-right of politics. It's another to deny reality. Even Malcolm Fraser thinks Howard played some pretty nasty politics that demeaned the party. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Achmad Sudarsono said...

P.S. - on East Timor. C'mon, Pal. That was just a realist foreign policy. No one was a bigger champion than Menzies. What, do you honestly think the party that sent Australian troops to Vietnam would've had a problem with a U.S.-backed strongman taking care of the "reds" (thanks Ross!), in that little Cuba to our north ?

oigal said...

Assmad,

You stun me. some semi-rational (albeit wrong) points of debate.

Ok, just quickly tho (it is a comments section after all)

Stolen Generation.. "Just one case in Darwin" No it was two and safe to assume it was the test cases for a massive class action unfortunately turned out to be a complete fabrication from start to finish..follow up cases..none?

Yes they did take aborginal children from families,again safe to assume they got it wrong sometimes but in the vast majority of cases the children were in danger of abuse, drunks or were treated as sub-humans because they were half castes.

Oh it was fashionable to cry poor bugger me I am from the stolen generation..even that fraud Lois o whatmecallit tried until she too was proven an abject liar..Do tell a proven case or better yet a systematic policy of taking all children..

So now I am supposed to say sorry for aborginal deaths in custody..If the copper was wrong then charge him and I think it sucks but I didn't do it (BTW..If you must have a sorry..the do-gooders who created the raft of sit down money and no responsibility in aborginal communities have more to apologise for than anyone else).

You brought ASTIC into the discussion (suprised at that given its record of destruction) so you don't get to bail out of it now.

Actually the abject failure of ASTIC is what lead to the Soldiers in the community. You and I both know you reference to soldiers is both emotional and rubbish. The government had no option after the report on rampant sexual abuse, infrastructure failure, grog and violence all thanks to the do-gooders who have lived in some dreamtime of their own. Are you disputing that the current intervention does not have the support of the vast majority of responsible aborginal leaders?

BTW ..Ever been to Roper Bar on pension day?

"It wasn't just about Bungs and Abbos. It was pure economic nationalism. " Your point?

TAMPA was tacky...never said Howard was the best..he was the only option though. That being said.."you come uninvited and you take your chances" Funny how you leave out that Australia under Howard takes more immigrant refugees per captia than any other western nation in the world..weird act for a racist, don't you think?

Fraser as a reference...Please and do give him back his trousers..he underwent a new age conversion...minor stroke perhaps.

Come on Assmad.. what about a fair dinkum attempt at the Cronulla Riots (sic)...

East Timor..very Rossett.. The Tampa is a big deal but selling out a nation (and 5 journos) by the ALP is just real politic.. tsk tsk..Its not if the Libs what have done it, its the fact that Labour did!!

Thats actually pretty funny..bit like the Police Chief (Jak) defence on corruption..On being accused of receiving 5 tonnes of kerosene (Tonnes??) he stated if I didn't take it someone else would have..Didn't wash for that scum rat and does not wash for the ALP.

To be fair each and any of your points could be an essay on its own..so if you want to narrow the focus a bit ..feel free

Achmad Sudarsono said...

Oigal,

Not sure where the discussion will go, or how productive it'll be, as I think we're coming from very different starting points. But fair enough.
Let's talk about the "Stolen Generation." You've said that the soldiers were sent in because there was no choice. There also seems to be a link with the policy of "relocating" (let's not use emotional words like "take"), children from their birth-parents. I take your last statement that you think it might have been for the children's safety, because they were in danger of abuse, including the darkest kinds.
Before we get started, my question to you: how did it get to a point that alcoholism and violence was widespread in aboriginal communities? There wasn't any alcohol in 1788, from what I can tell. So how did it get to the sad state where the government had to send in soldiers ? What do you think happened in the last 220 years ?

oigal said...

Well I guess that’s a bit more focused.

Stolen Generations, Tell you what..Provide ONE (just one) proven case where the child was removed for anything other than the best of intentions and to protect the child from danger or abuse. Surely, if as you are trying to portray it, this was a systematic and evil piece of cultural genocide then there should be at least ONE case to be had. After all, there is a raft of government funded lawyers and social engineers that have been working on this for years…JUST ONE ..Easy huh?

Your next point is somewhat tougher before I get to it lets dispense with the 1788 nonsense. Of course, life would be better for the Aboriginals if the British hadn’t arrived (Dancing gaily across the desert with their pet kangaroos, looking after the elders until they died of a ripe old age in contented bliss..ok..sorry.. I got carried await with the new age noble savage dreamtime there)

Point is, if the Brits didn’t arrive, the French or the Chinese or (with that fantastic record of cultural generosity) the Javanese (It is always amusing when a Javanese speaks of the evils of colonisation). Or perhaps by some fantastic luck, they could have held out until 1942 and welcomed the Japanese.

How did it get to this? Its unfortunate, but a fact of life when two cultures meet, one is going to take a beating. However, the beginning of the end can be directly attributed to the Walk Off at Wave Hill Station.

For decades Stations had employed Aboriginals and families to work the land and the cattle but had paid in food, lodgings, material etc. Then the Social Workers and Social Engineers decided that was exploitive (and no doubt in many cases in was). So they engineered the situation were the practice was banned and Aboriginals could only be employed at full cash money rates, trouble is Stations could not afford that. So there was no more work, no more good food, no more reason to get up each day and no more pride. Of course, the tax payer had to front up and pay cash “sit down” money.

So now we have had two generations of money for nothing and nothing but Grog to wake up too. Was the old system perfect ..no far from it, but it was better the presented alternative.

As for the soldiers, even the most rabid unconnected social worker admits the recent report into child and grog abuse in the territory is factual (they may still argue about what to do..but that’s all they even do is talk). Something had to be done, Soldier’s are perhaps not the best choice but in the short term the only choice (there are not that many police, doctors and nurses around). As for Social Workers..Damn have they not done enough damage?


I assume you disagree with the soldiers and the intervention. Fair Enough, then offer something up, 1788, Stolen Generation, Poor Bugger me are just words, offer an alternative to the kid before next pension day when he has to watch his mother get bashed again and skip the talk fest of big bad white fellas.

As Noel Pearson said (I para-phrase) “Its alright for you to sit there and whinge about paternalism, the little kid cowering in the passageway listening to the yelling and hitting would not mind a bit paternalism about now”

Do I claim to know the answers, not even close! All I know is the last thirty years of Social Workers did more harm than the previous 100 years of so called exploitation.

Achmad Sudarsono said...

Sounds like you've got strong feelings on this, Oigal. Oil and gas industry. I'm wondering if you aren't from W.A., or had contact with Australian aboriginals at some point.

But just so we're on the same page, and I'm not misinterpreting you.

* What happened to Australia's aboriginal culture was, more or less, inevitable. It just happened to be White Europeans that landed there.

* Social policy, including ATSIC and "do gooders" (social workers, etc), has largely been a failure.

* Due to the abuse of children at the hands of grog-addled, violent parents, (probably the result of similar treatment), they had to send in soldiers as a short-term, stop-gap measure.

* Children were taken from their parents for similar reasons back in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s. So the government can't be blamed.

* Overall, Australia's no worse than any other country. It certainly can't be called racist.

Is that right ?

I'll have to take your word on the station cash-payment situation as the start of the problem.

In all honesty, it sounds like your better informed than me right now. I'd have to do some reading, which I don't have time for. I'm sure you understand.

I still have more questions. Why did Australia block the Japanese bid for racial equality at the post WW1 negotiations? Why did Australia have a White Australia policy until Whitlam was elected? More importantly, why didn't aboriginals get the vote until 1967? Finally, why is Australia so vocal about human rights when it has so much cleaning up to do? Such questions would be off the topic.

So we might have to leave it for now. And thanks for spilling the ink -- I didn't know that about the stations. But I'd still end up probably disagreeing even if I did know more. :-)

Thanks again,

Achmad.

oigal said...

Assmad,

With the exception of being from WA and the Oil and Gas (I did work alongside some aborginals for a long time and one in particular was good mate but not in that Industry), your summary of my position is about right.

Difficult as it is in short "wordbite" versions if I may further clarify..

The Wave Hill station (and others) was blantant discrimation and was not fair nor right, but to remove the system and without any real alternative other than "sit down" money was typical leftist screw FIG JAM thinking at it worst.

As for the soldiers, an alternative, fortunately OZ Soldiers are generally regarded as holding a decent sense of justice and social fair play and hopefully will give time for some real leaders (aborginal and others a lot smarter than me) to come up with something workable.

"hy did Australia block the Japanese bid for racial equality at the post WW1 negotiations" You are not serious are you? Japanese..racial equality..do tell us about the status of Japanese born Koreans at the moment? Or perhaps read "You will never leave alive, Sinagpore under Japanese Occupation"

"Why is Australia so vocal about human rights when it has so much cleaning up to do?"

Sorry, what human rights are currently abused in Australia? as compared to which country?

"why didn't aboriginals get the vote until 1967?"

Yes much too late but lets by honest here you reaching back 40 years to try and make a point about todays Australia (by the way, lets do talk about who can vote, where in our region, that would be fun?)

White Australia Policy..emotive name but I personally think Australia does need a far stricter policy even now, based not on colour but on values. When Australia ends up with a leading IMAM in Sydney publicly declaring that Rapists should go free because women who don't dress to his pre historic standards are "just pieces of meat" then we have missed the point.

Again each of those points you raised could be an essay on its own, and please try and avoid the ROSS tactic of ignoring rebuttals to your statements and introducing a whole raft of red herrings.

That said, I will always reply to a sensible tirade that does not mean I won't give you the cuffing you so richly deserve for unwarranted insults on those I hold dear (consider it a part of growing up and taking responsiblity for ones actions), never the less in the meantime..

Achmad Sudarsono said...

Oigal,

Didn't ever mean to insult your family. Sorry if I did so. But by all means, cuff away. (I think you'd break your metacarpals, though, most people including boxers, don't know how to throw a bare-knuckle punch).

On Australia. There's a passage in one of Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer stories. In it, Tom decides to help the Negro Jim escape, feeling guilty because he thinks slavery is god-ordained, but decides he prefer to go to hell than betray his friend. I think it's instructive for Australia for alot of last century. In Australia, I think it was John Chifley, first post ww2 president, who asked McCarthur not to bring over black troops because of the country's White Australia policy. McCarthur said bugger off. In the documentary I saw, the black
troops I saw said the Australians "forgot to be racist," and they had a great time in Brisbane.
We started talking about the Stolen Children thing. According to Wikipedia, some 100,000 were taken away. On racism, is 40 years ago that long in terms of a nation's bedrock identity ? Can the attitudes disappear that quickly.
And my stupid jokes aside, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Malaysia and Singapore are all probably worse. Singapore has race policies in 2007, not 1967.

Achmad Sudarsono said...

From today or yesterday's IHT (by Tim Johnston)...


The Australian reported that she was placed in a number of
foster homes, eventually ending up with a nonindigenous family,
and although she had been progressing well in her new home,
social workers who believed that indigenous children should not
be placed with nonindigenous families moved her back to Aurukun,
where she was assaulted.

oigal said...

There are any number of emotive cases that justify the current intervention by the OZ government. The social engineers have had their day and little children paid the price.

As for the stolen generation (sic) two points..one Wikipedia is only as accurate as the last entry but ok lets accept the 100,000 kids were taken without due cause (which I assume is your point) surely out of that 100,000 there is ONE case that can be dragged into the courts for compensation..Or are todays courts corrupt and under goverment control as well?

The intent may have been flawed, but the intent was by and large for the best of the child (yes they were bound to be some abuses its run by humans after all)

Its not fair to view those intents soley through the PRISM of today;s values and knowledge. An example my mother would have been viewed as a racist.."All Asians are evil yellow bastards" however coming from a poor rural family her whole experience of Asians was the Japanese A'holes of WW2, it never occured to her that other Asians suffered under the Japs as she did. Did that really make her racist ..no..can an attitude like that change in 40 years..yes..in fact in about 24 hours after she met my girl.

Having said that OZ still has them, I was simply stunned recently when I finally clued in the reason a holiday park manager was so hostile was the fact my girl is Asian..but they are few and far between...

Its not the race but the immigrant values that have most OZ concerned.